Base gotenks (pre rosat) vs Majin vegeta.

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Base gotenks (pre rosat) vs Majin vegeta.
Tweet Topic Started: Jun 2 2018, 01:51 PM (1,345 Views)
+ Six Trails	Jun 3 2018, 10:06 PM Post #31
Posts: 1,570 Group: Elite Member Member #11,764 Joined: October 23, 2014 Gender Not Specified Country United States	EMIYA Jun 3 2018, 09:57 PM It doesn't matter whether or not Gotenks is stronger than Boo, heck we're given implications that both Goku and Boo were holding back and just treating the fight as a fun little game. So it's always possible for Gotenks to have done well against the Boo that fought Goku, not realizing that Boo might not have been giving it his all. It's something Piccolo himself comes to possibly understand when he realizes Goku hadn't gone all out but Goku's remarks make it sound like even if he had, he might not have been able to defeat Boo. Considering the SEG amps allows a 4x amp between SSJ2 and SSJ3, there's more than enough room to put Base Gotenks between there and have everything both make sense and still have your precious gag scene. A gag scene shouldn't be made for the sake of making your story into crap. So Gotenks’ ability to beat Boo doesn’t matter whether he’s stronger than Boo or Goku (who can’t beat Boo in everyone but Piccolo’s mind), but it matters if he’s stronger than Vegeta who’s significantly weaker than Boo...? Because only Piccolo is ever shown thinking that Goku could’ve actually beat Boo. In everyone else’s mind (like Krillin and Yamcha), Goku can’t beat Boo. Saying the characters acting dumb in a gag scene makes the story crap is a cop-out. They’re supposed to act dumb, that’s what makes the scene funny. If Krillin and Yamcha can both sense that Gotenks’ Ki is way weaker than Boo’s, then they’re idiots for thinking Gotenks can beat Boo. Randomly comparing Gotenks to Vegeta who’s irrelevant at this point doesn’t justify that. Edited by Six Trails, Jun 3 2018, 10:06 PM.



EMIYA	Jun 3 2018, 10:19 PM Post #32
"I am the bone of my sword." Posts: 11,326 Group: Super Moderator Member #8,292 Joined: September 16, 2012 Gender Not Specified Country United States Favourite Anime Clannad, Shinsekai Yori What Browser do you use? Mozilla Firefox Favourite Manga Hellsing, Elfen Lied, Trigun Maximum	It really does though, because everyone knows how powerful Vegeta was and the fact that failed. Indications are given that nobody but Piccolo knows how strong Goku and Boo are, Therefore, Gotenks' confidence can have merit to everyone because at best, they only know what was recently just felt by SSJ3 Goku and Boo and even that can have outliers. Piccolo is the only one who knows the truth and thus, he's the only one who realizes just how over his head Gotenks is. This is literally the "information" issue from the 25th Budokai Topic. PIccolo, thanks to Goku, is privy on information that Goku was holding back and that Boo too may have been holding back as well. Even if Gotenks might have been around the level of what Goku used to fight Boo, he knows that potentially it won't be enough and tries to stop Gotenks. Meanwhile, everyone else has no clue about Goku and Boo holding back, and thus can only trust what they just felt. I'll say it again, by having Gotenks stronger than Vegeta, you can both have your gag scene but also have the scene make sense. Nobody has to become a moron. Krillin, who despite Vegeta's confidence and No. 16's own numbers, knew both Cell an Trunks was holding back, doesn't have to act like a guy who is weaker than Vegeta might win. A guy who Krillin literally saw blow himself up too. It allows a reasonable understanding of why everyone is confident. It allows a reason for Gotenks to be confident. And there's more than enough room to have Gotenks in a place where he can still be considered strong but still weak enough to have the "gag" work. I'll say it again, if Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, than you can easily have your gag work without making everyone else into a moron. Otherwise, the sake of your gag works because people are stupid and Toriyama is a terrible writer. Edited by EMIYA, Jun 3 2018, 10:19 PM.



+ Six Trails	Jun 4 2018, 03:39 AM Post #33
Posts: 1,570 Group: Elite Member Member #11,764 Joined: October 23, 2014 Gender Not Specified Country United States	EMIYA Jun 3 2018, 10:19 PM Indications are given that nobody but Piccolo knows how strong Goku and Boo are When? EMIYA PIccolo, thanks to Goku, is privy on information that Goku was holding back and that Boo too may have been holding back as well. Holding back isn't synonymous with suppression. They would've still felt all of Goku and Boo's Ki, since nothing points to either one of them suppressing but rather Goku just pulling his punches. EMIYA Even if Gotenks might have been around the level of what Goku used to fight Boo, he knows that potentially it won't be enough and tries to stop Gotenks.Meanwhile, everyone else has no clue about Goku and Boo holding back, and thus can only trust what they just felt. Except nothing suggests that at all. Nothing suggests that Boo had any more power than he used against Goku, and no one attributes Gotenks' loss to them underestimating Boo. It literally could not be made any clearer that Gotenks was grossly overestimated. What does everyone falling on their back when Gotenks returns indicate to you? EMIYA I'll say it again, by having Gotenks stronger than Vegeta, you can both have your gag scene but also have the scene make sense. Nobody has to become a moron. Krillin, who despite Vegeta's confidence and No. 16's own numbers, knew both Cell an Trunks was holding back, doesn't have to act like a guy who is weaker than Vegeta might win. A guy who Krillin literally saw blow himself up too. It allows a reasonable understanding of why everyone is confident. It allows a reason for Gotenks to be confident. And there's more than enough room to have Gotenks in a place where he can still be considered strong but still weak enough to have the "gag" work. I'll say it again, if Gotenks is stronger than Vegeta, than you can easily have your gag work without making everyone else into a moron. Otherwise, the sake of your gag works because people are stupid and Toriyama is a terrible writer. Just want to point out that I notice you keep saying "your" gag scene or putting gag in quotations, as if it's something I'm making up to support a bias. That scene is literally a gag scene, not my gag scene. To even suggest otherwise is complete ignorance and I'm really not sure how any other conclusion could be reached. Anyways, I'd rather just accept that Gotenks was overhyped to setup the joke of him coming back all beat-up because he overestimated himself than insert my own headcanon to try and justify a scene that isn't meant to be taken seriously. Saying it's "bad writing" otherwise is a really poor argument. Why should characters be reasonable and sensible during a joke scene? Edited by Six Trails, Jun 4 2018, 04:06 PM.



PF18	Jun 5 2018, 04:09 AM Post #34
Posts: 450 Group: Member Member #14,296 Joined: March 22, 2018 Gender Male Country United States	Majin Vegeta stomps.



StrenuousSpider	Jun 5 2018, 05:18 AM Post #35
Posts: 2,085 Group: Member Member #13,372 Joined: July 11, 2016 Gender Male Country United States	So goku fighting kid buu on equal footing. A weaker fat buu doing better then vegeta against kid buu. Is not a indicator that ssj3 goku and fat buu were holding back in both ki and punchs? Mind you a buu that is half as strong as his old self but still weaker then kid in both. It kind of makes me believe that fat and kid are both closer then we think they are. Edited by StrenuousSpider, Jun 5 2018, 05:20 AM.



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